Out of step with the Jewish blogosphere
Note: Both Orthomom and Krum as a Bagel insist that their posts were not meant to be disrespectful to gedolim. I apologize for intimating that; it was what I took from their language, and it was not their intent.
It’s become commonplace for Jewish blogs, Torah observant blogs, to pick on the perceived foibles of rabbinic leadership. In the last few days I’ve seen posts ridiculing the Edah haCharedis for their stance on vocational training, laughing at the White List of tznius-compliant stores, and more.
I'm generally the last one to protect the Edah haChareidis. As a YU/RCA musmach, I don’t agree with them on a lot of things. My daughter will, G-d-willing, receive higher education, and there are no White List stores on our family's shopping list. I am regularly astonished at the obtuseness of Agudah proclamations, as well as those of other major Jewish organizations.
All the same, I have to express my extreme discomfort at the tenor of these articles and the criticism leveled at gedolim. I just don’t think that the average Torah-observant Jew has any clue what the word “gadol” means.
I’m reminded of Rocky (the original film), the scene when Rocky is in a bar, watching a television interview with World Heavyweight Champion Apollo Creed. Apollo is yukking it up and playing the dandy, telling kids to wear suits and carry briefcases rather than become a professional athlete. The bartender calls Apollo a clown, and Rocky turns on him. “You calling Creed a clown? You calling the heavyweight champion of the world a clown?” Rocky, the third-rate ham-and-egger, knows what boxing is about, knows the kind of work you put in to train and win a fight, and knows the work ethic, not to mention talent, that goes into becoming heavyweight champion. He respects it in a way that others cannot, because they’re not in the field.
That’s the way I feel when I hear people mock gedolim and question their Torah knowledge and their ethics. These are rabbis who have spent decades learning and teaching, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen hours per day. They’ve been dedicated to this their entire lives. They don’t take breaks and luxurious vacations, they don’t watch TV and movies or read paperback novels, they don’t hang out with their friends schmoozing. I’m not romanticizing it; this is the life.
There are some 2700 daf in shas, and the Gedolim can tell you what's on each page. They can quote Rishonim and Acharonim and debate and discuss the different sides of each argument. They know Shulchan Aruch, they know poskim and teshuvos.
And they know life. They answer questions from rabbis like me every day, with sensitivity and wisdom and creativity. They know how to be lenient, and they know when to be strict. They are quite familiar with the human condition.
So when you question the gedolim, keep in mind that you're talking about the Heavyweight Champions of the World. For gedolim, these decisions are all about ethics, and all about right and wrong, not about power and ego. Question their decisions, but don’t question their gadlus.
Wednesday, January 03, 2007
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101 comments:
"They know how to be lenient, and they know when to be strict. They are quite familiar with the human condition."
and yet, their communities are a dysfunctional mess, made up of people too afraid to move without their approval for fear of not finding a shidduch for a child that is not yet born. I have nothing but respect for a person who dedicates his or her life to learning, to studying and to making their life about living an ideal. I do however have a huge problem when these same people place a level of burden on their communities, communities that have no choice but to conform.
I am not part of these communities, but it makes me question my commitment to orthodoxy if these rulings and these stringencies not only have a place in Halacha but are supported by those whose opinions I do trust. How can Halacha place so little trust in a woman's ability to recognize when clothing is not modest and instead must be instructed her where to shop?
I don't think this is about questioning the commitment to Halacha and learning. I think the questioning comes in when these same men, Gadols, treat their communities as if they are not even capable of tying their own shoes.
anonymous:
I think two separate issues are being mixed here:
1. An authority certifying a business is acceptable, and
2. A community developing a paranoiac need for approval on things that don't require approval.
We have all manner of certifications. OSHA certifies workplaces. The FDA certifies drugs. IEEE certifies something, although I'm not clear what. Agencies certify that a business or product performs to an expected standard. That's not a bad thing.
That "not a bad thing" includes a situation in which authorities certify that a woman walking a store can feel comfortable that she will find what she is seeking.
The problem, as I see it, is when individuals decide that they need more certification - and that anyone who doesn't agree is no good. When seeking certification becomes a matter of proving one's personal frumkeit, and proving that others are not up to it, that's when I think there is a problem.
It is indeed strange to see an apparent disconnect between the Torah wisdom these gedolim possess and what some of us consider to be common sense. I think most of that probably stems from valuing preservation of a halachic society above the creation of thoughtful, intellectually independent human beings. This creates a culture that values isolation from the larger society as a protection against the various threats it brings with it and really is fearful of losing the commitment of its now afraid but confused population. I might be too.
I'm not saying there are easy answers, the Modern Orthodox community has its share of problems too, on the other end of the spectrum. We've personally talked about "going charedi" and my husband has at least one rebbe who is convinced that's the way to go. I don't think that's where we're headed, partially for the reasons outlined by anonymous above. My point is only that I see theirs too.
zFor me, I see Halacha as such a dynamic system, I feel like all these rule and restrictions not only dumb down the people within the communities (who can no longer make straight forward decisions for themeselves) but it also dumbs down Halacha. This is a system that has thrived for thousands of years. Do we really think that skirt lengths are going to pose a real threat to its existance?
In addition, these communities are made up of people who have 'gone through' the system. If standards of Tzinut are not covered in the schools to a degree that makes people feel comfortable, then by all means cover it more. But don't start telling women that they are too stupid to make choices for themselves, it's just ridiculous
sabine613:
I hear what you are saying, but I'm not sure I can agree. Common sense, by definition, is the product of an era; why would we want to create a society modeled on the dictates of common sense?
anonymous:
I'm not clear. Are you objecting to the idea that length of a skirt matters? Or to having someone tell you what length it should be?
A common argument offered by bloggers (and one I respect) is that the expert is an expert within his field of study/ knowledge, but outside of it, he is not.
We would go to a doctor for medical advice, not a lawyer. But we would go to the lawyer to help us with a complicated legal matter.
So too, one respects a Gadol for precisely that- the fact that he is a learned individual, someone who has devoted much of his life to learning, in great detail, the law of God. One might also respect the Gadol for his character traits.
So when a Gadol makes a ruling on a matter of absolute halakha, whether something is kosher or treif, we accept it. When a Gadol speaks about Torah, we scramble to hear his words.
But then the question becomes a bit trickier when the Gadol appears to step outside of his area of expertise. Gedolim speaking about the Internet when, by their own stances, they have never come into contact with it, seems faulty. Or banning books or ideas when they haven't read the books in question. Or allegedly ruling that something is not problematic with regard to halakha, seemingly dismissively, when in truth it is a soul-shattering, terrible occurence.
Out of curiousity, how do you react to such an argument? Or do you believe that every single area of life ought to be counted as falling under a Gadol's area of expertise? If so, why?
keeping people poor by preventing them from working and then prohibiting their wives from getting decent jobs by forbidding higher eduction is not a "foible," and neither are the other many other oppressive decrees that rabbinic leadership force upon their communities. the fact that people who are so learned in torah could be responsible for such oppression is what's so disturbing.
Chana:
Thanks for your post.
I, personally, do not subscribe to the idea that gadlus extends to areas beyond its expertise... but I do believe that gadlus is not limited to gemara and poskim. I think experience in life and answering shailos broadens them a good deal.
For example: If I, on my own level, have to answer a question related to kashrut, I have to learn a lot of technical information before I can answer the question responsibly. How much more so for someone dealing with the shailot of a huge community of Jews.
I will add, though, that I find it odd for anyone to offer psak on issues that they have not researched. The gemara makes it clear that the Sanhedrin was required to learn about issues, even forbidden issues, in order to pasken on them!
This was truly an awesome column. I think that there is just a lack of respect out there that is unbelievable. Thatnk you Rabbi Sanscause for a beautiful insight
anonymous:
I agree in practice - but I also have a philosophical problem.
What do you do if your understanding of halachah is that (a)women shouldn't enter into that kind of educaitonal program, and that
(b) the men should be sitting and learning?
I underline that these are not my opinions - but are you suggesting that one who does believe in those opinions should rule against his understanding of Torah?
Anonymous (2:34 PM):
Thanks!
The power of Hirhurim is amazing; I usually get 8-12 visitors a day, pretty much a group of regulars, but since Gil linked to this post two hours ago I've had over 100 come through here.
What is this notion of "gedolim"?
Can you please give an explanation of how this concept evolved?
(asking sincerely)
Do the gedolim followers recognize (and accept) that most frum Jews do no subscribe with blind devotion to Gedolim rulings?
When I have a shaila I ask my local Rav.
(arrived via hirhurim)
The point of my post was not to mock, to dismiss or to denigrate. The point of my post was to demonstrate the hardship (both economic and otherwise) caused by the rulings of haredi leadership. This is undeniable and can be statistically proven. I agree that my post was written in a provocative way, but as I noted int eh post, this was done for effect not out of disrespect.
So are you saying that one cannot criticize the acts of the gedolim? Or discuss the ramifications of how their rulings?
But "What do you do if your understanding of halachah is that (a)women shouldn't enter into that kind of educaitonal program, and that(b) the men should be sitting and learning?"
The ideal of men learning Torah is not new, but for the entire history of Judaism it has been the elite who have been able to do this, either b/c they have money or b/c they have the brains. The Gedolim have set up a system where this is now the ONLY option. What happened to our community that we can no longer tolerate that we need those involved in trade and commerce to maintain a healthy social structure? If Halacha couldn't allow for these professions they wouldn't be written about in Gemara.
And it is precisly b/c they've limited the men that they can't (logically) limit the women and expect the system not to collapse around their ears. I don't think in the end that it is the idea of limits, but it seems that this system cannot continue, and the Gedolim owe it to their communities to lead.
Yup. What they did to Rabbi Slifkin – and how they did it – was pure gadlus. That's why so manyh of us make fun of them – and it.
Are you foolish enough to believe that dedication to a cause equals gadlus? I don't care how many hours or how few vacations. I care about results.
How about a certain child abuse coverup with heavy participation for gedolim? Is that gadus?
Is telling victims that, because there was no penetration, there was no abuse, gadlus? Telling them that calling the police is mesira – is that gadlus?
You're not rabbi without a cause, you're rabbi without a clue.
I'm not sure that "common sense" is necessarily the product of an era. It just means to look at a situation and make rational decisions based on the information that you have. This is and should be used in the process of psak. "Paskening from the basement" is what happens when you leave that element out.
I second the analysis of anonymous 3:13 above. Chazal, for the most part, held jobs. How many people are really not that into learning, but spending their days sitting in yeshiva being supported by the community because otherwise they won't be able to get married?
Not really sure how you can give my blog or the post you linked as an example of someone who "mocks" Gedolim. I may respectfully disagree - but "ridicule"? That's completely out of line with what I do. Unless you are saying that respectfully disagreeing with some edicts and bans that Gedolim issue is always out of line. If you are saying that, then just come out and say that clearly, and then you can use me as an example - in which case, I can find many similar examples on your own blog. But don't use me as an example of someone who ridicules Gedolim. It's flat-out dishonest.
jew asked:
"What is this notion of "gedolim"?
Can you please give an explanation of how this concept evolved?
(asking sincerely)"
We find it in the Gemara itself, which is where the first usage of "gedolei hador" occurs as well.
When Abayye objects to something Rav Yosef says, he calls Rav Yosef "Mar [Master]" and says, "But what about X," he doesn't say "I think you're wrong." There's a degree of respect, because of Rav Yosef's stature. Note that Abayye [or is it Rabbah? I forget] is also the one who says, "If the early ones were like angels, we are like people. If they were like people, we are like donkeys."
Jew asked:
"Do the gedolim followers recognize (and accept) that most frum Jews do no subscribe with blind devotion to Gedolim rulings?"
I'm not sure what "most" has to do with anything. Most Jews don't ask any shailos at all!
Jew noted:
"When I have a shaila I ask my local Rav"
Great!
krum as a bagel asked:
"So are you saying that one cannot criticize the acts of the gedolim? Or discuss the ramifications of how their rulings?"
I wrote explicitly that one may question and challenge. My problem is with the ad hominem and the questioning of their sincerity that I've been reading.
anonymous (3:13) wrote:
"What happened to our community that we can no longer tolerate that we need those involved in trade and commerce to maintain a healthy social structure? If Halacha couldn't allow for these professions they wouldn't be written about in Gemara."
I agree with you - but there is an opposing point of view, that argues that in our age one cannot have his cake and eat it too.
Realize that the Rambam insists on people having jobs, but he also envisions a job that allows you to learn a minimum of 9 hours per day!
Funny that people don't mention that when they quote only part of the Rambam's comment...
shmarya asks:
"Are you foolish enough to believe that dedication to a cause equals gadlus? I don't care how many hours or how few vacations. I care about results."
It's not a matter of the dedication alone - it's also a matter of the results. Demonstrated mastery of the subject matter, and demonstrated humanity and sensitivity - in most cases.
"How about a certain child abuse coverup with heavy participation for gedolim? Is that gadus?
Is telling victims that, because there was no penetration, there was no abuse, gadlus? Telling them that calling the police is mesira – is that gadlus?"
I think it's horrible - but I don't think it's license to attack any and all gedolim.
"You're not rabbi without a cause, you're rabbi without a clue."
Aw, you're sweet. It's all right; I've been called worse by people who know me.
WADR, the problem isn't only that people think it's open season on "the gedolim". (A concept I think is both ill defined and not mesoretic.)
It's that they are doing it to feel like they did something. In the meantime, they seem to be perfectly happy letting the problems they're complaining of go unsolved. If you don't like where Orthodoxy is now, you have an obligation to yourself, your children, and the rest of the Jewish community to start initiatives to make it more like your ideal. Don't worry, if you're wrong, you won't succeed.
"They" have to do something about it. So go out and become one of the "they".
-mi
"These are rabbis who have spent decades learning and teaching, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen hours per day. ... They don’t take breaks and luxurious vacations, they don’t watch TV and movies or read paperback novels, they don’t hang out with their friends schmoozing."
They also don't go to college, have no particular understanding of (or interest in) science, literature or history and rarely mix with gentiles. They may "know life" in your book, but they don't know my life.
There is no disputing their knowledge of what's on each of the 2700 pages of Shas, and if they confined themselves to making pronouncements on Shas, they would not find themselves the objects of ridicule.
When they make pronouncements on subjects on which they are clearly not gedolim, however, they sound foolish and invite ridicule.
Sorry, my friend, the world has evolved past the point where "because I'm a godol" is adequate support for an opinion.
I wrote explicitly that one may question and challenge. My problem is with the ad hominem and the questioning of their sincerity that I've been reading.
I wrote explicitly that I wasn't "questioning...theirsincerity ":
I don't mean to suggest that the Gedolim actually spoke these words or that they are intentionlly seeking to test charedim. I do mean to demnonstrate that their rulings are having that effect.
Simply disagreeing with, or discussing the consequences of a rabbinical ruling is not make ridicule or mock.
On my blog, I often discuss things that I feel could be done better within the Jewish community. My latest post concerns the White List that you mentioned, and I was planning a post later on about the vocational training issue as well.
However, I like to think that in my postings, I have always when respectful and calm. I do not mock or denigrate anyone, even those I vehemently disagree with.
As a society, we must have the ability to discuss issues in public. Without that, then there is no accountability -- and yes, the gedolim *are* accountable to us. They must have valid reasons to rule the way they do - they cannot just make stuff up, after all.
To say that we cannot have a voice (and, as always, a respectful voice) in public affairs makes us no better than the rigid theocracies of such places as Saudi Arabia. There must be open discourse in determining the best public and halachic policy to persue.
The Wolf
sabine613 writes:
"How many people are really not that into learning, but spending their days sitting in yeshiva being supported by the community because otherwise they won't be able to get married? "
I fully agree that this is a problem. But, at the same time, I see the perspective of those who disagree. If you read the Rambam in his peirush to Avos on the issue of earning a living, it becomes very clear that there was a powerful machlokes on this raging in his time, too.
"There are some 2700 daf in shas, and the Gedolim can tell you what's on each page. They can quote Rishonim and Acharonim and debate and discuss the different sides of each argument. They know Shulchan Aruch, they know poskim and teshuvos."
No one mocks them as having bad memories, so this point is a red herring, really.
What people mock them for, and rightly so, is their backwards adherence to concepts that have been proven wrong by way of scientific and scholarly means.
The greatest gedolim signed onto a letter in the Slifkin case that mocked the very idea that the "world" is "millions of years old" calling it utter nonsense and claiming that reading words like that should make one rend his garments. http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5765/bo/aslifkin.htm
It isn't clear if by "olam" these gedolim meant Earth or the Universe, but either way, it's BILLIONS, not "millions!" So, they have created the impression that they are fools with no concept of number orders of magnitude larger than those used in the gemara or cosmology yet they freely mock it.
That, sir, is why people mock the gedolim, each and every signer of that letter deserves to be openly mocked just as much as if they had declared the earth to be flat or that the Sun orbits the Earth.
R. Sternbuch wrote a similarly absurd letter about this issue, demonstrating that he has little or no understanding of scientific concepts. http://zootorah.com/controversy/RavSternbuchEnglish.pdf
R. Uren reich of Woodlake Yeshiva said all kinds of silly things, the most specious of which was:
"These same scientists
who tell you with such clarity what happened sixty-five million years ago – ask them what the weather will be like in New York in two weeks’ time! “Possibly, probably, it
could be, maybe” – ain itam hadavar, they don’t know. They know everything that
happened 65 million years ago, but from their madda, and their wissenschaft, we have to
be mispoel?!"
The gedolim showed just how ignorant they are and just how useless it is to study the 2700 pages of shas and the commentaries if it leaves you so morally and logically bankrupt. And yes, lying to yourself and your followers is morally and logically bankrupt.
These rabbeim adhere to the principle that chazzal never erred, even though the many, many errors of chazzal are right there in black and white- the hyrax and the hare, the flat earth, the ptolomaic worldview, the witchcraft cures and so on.
They don’t take breaks and luxurious vacations, they don’t watch TV and movies or read paperback novels, they don’t hang out with their friends schmoozing. I’m not romanticizing it; this is the life.
There are some 2700 daf in shas, and the Gedolim can tell you what's on each page. They can quote Rishonim and Acharonim and debate and discuss the different sides of each argument. They know Shulchan Aruch, they know poskim and teshuvot
Not only are you romanticizing but you are absolutely exaggerating.
The gedolim do take vacations & sometimes in very luxurious places.
Havn't you heard of the Hasidic Rebbes going for very expensive vacations in various spots in Europe.That was in the past & also now.
And,no they don't know what's on every daf/amud of the 2700 pages of the Talmud(does that include Yerushalmy?),& the thousands of shut & the all other thousands upon thousands of sefarim.
You remind me of the story told of Rabbis able to read the words of any page in a gemara through which a needle had gone through it.Maybe there was once such a freak with a photographic memory,but that woudn't prove anything.
Why the gross exaggerations? These guzmaot are best left to Rabba Bar Channa.
The Gedolim are great talmidei chachamim,but just that.
"kol hamosiph gore'a"
Unfortunately there is a huge disconnect between many of the gedolim and the masses who see them as residing in an ivory tower. Do some of them try to bridge this gap as much as possible? Yes, I am sure they do. But pointing out to non-boxers that they don't know squat about who is a great boxer may be true, but pointing out to a Jew outside the circle that he's peanuts and an am haaretz? Well, when seeds are sown eventually they are reaped. It isn't all on the little guy's shoulders to understand things that are greater than him, if they in fact are. If there is a disconnect from above, the leadership does have a duty to be more populist, if they've neglected to be so in the past.
These are rabbis who have spent decades learning and teaching, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen hours per day. They’ve been dedicated to this their entire lives. They don’t take breaks and luxurious vacations, they don’t watch TV and movies or read paperback novels, they don’t hang out with their friends schmoozing.
Maybe that's the problem.
orthomom writes:
"But don't use me as an example of someone who ridicules Gedolim. It's flat-out dishonest. "
I'll edit my original post to reflect your statement. BUT, I have to add that in my part of the world, saying "I absolutely cannot believe this new ruling" doesn't count as respectful debate. That's what led me astray.
shmarya wrote:
"How about a certain child abuse coverup with heavy participation for gedolim? Is that gadus?"
Don't red herring me. My post was on the acts of gedolim regarding the White List, and the decree about higher education.
Makri dardiki in schools are not gedolim, and shouldn't be lumped together.
"I agree with you - but there is an opposing point of view, that argues that in our age one cannot have his cake and eat it too."
but in the context of this discussion (learning full time vs. working) what does this mean? The Gedolim have encouraged an entire generation of men that anything but learning is fool-hardy, but they are not willing then to place other limits on their own communitites (fewer children, advanced degrees for women so a decent living can be earned). Who is trying to have their cake and eat it too? The young men and women who try to exist in this system? The Gedolim who set it up? The media that gets to write about the sad state of affairs?
In regards to this specific post, and especially with regards to what you've written is that the Gedolim have done a great disservice to our community. They present the sitatution as if learning is the only option, without showing that "there was a powerful machlokes on this raging in his time, too". Allow the debate to go on, argue if it is better to devote every waking minute to Torah study or to contribute more tangible to the community, but don't condemn them to a life of lesser status because they make a different choice that is both recognized and validated by Halacha.
micha:
I agree whole-heartedly that there is a need for more action and fewer words.
As far as the "gedolim" concept being non-masoretic, I'd have to disagree. Certain elements, perhaps, but the core concept of gedolei torah being asked questions about life goes right to the gemara itself. What else was the tanna doing under the bed?
anonymous (4:36) writes:
"Sorry, my friend, the world has evolved past the point where "because I'm a godol" is adequate support for an opinion."
You know, I agreed with everything you wrote until you got to that line at the end. I don't know what this has to do with the world evolving.
krum as a bagel wrote:
"I wrote explicitly that I wasn't "questioning...theirsincerity "
And I have updated my blog post to reflect your statement, as well as Orthomom's. My apologies.
I suspect it's a cultural thing. Where I live, parody is considered mockery.
Re: rabbi without a cause, 5:13 PM, January 04, 2007
BUT, I have to add that in my part of the world, saying "I absolutely cannot believe this new ruling" doesn't count as respectful debate. That's what led me astray.
Please confirm that you are saying that expressing incredulousness is disrespectful.
Brooklyn Wolf:
I agree wholeheartedly.
Is DovBear chopped liver? 208 comments he gets on this subject and you don't even say hello?
b.t.a.:
I am quite familiar with the problems you are talking about. I own copies of the Slifkin books, too, and we have them in my shul library.
Having said that, there are ways to disagree without questioning a gadol's character, as you do ("The gedolim showed just how ignorant they are and just how useless it is to study the 2700 pages of shas and the commentaries if it leaves you so morally and logically bankrupt. And yes, lying to yourself and your followers is morally and logically bankrupt.")
anonymous 5:02 said:
"Not only are you romanticizing but you are absolutely exaggerating."
Actually, I'm not exaggerating at all. I knew guys in yeshiva who could have passed the Pin test. On certain masechtos I could have done it as well, and could do it now.
And as far as the rebbes at the spa in Europe - How do you define gadol? My definition is as I presented it: The ones who don't go on vacation.
anonymous 5:05 writes:
"If there is a disconnect from above, the leadership does have a duty to be more populist, if they've neglected to be so in the past."
I agree.
Jewish atheist wrote:
"Maybe that's the problem."
Could be part of it. How would you correct it?
anonymous 5:18 wrote:
" Allow the debate to go on, argue if it is better to devote every waking minute to Torah study or to contribute more tangible to the community, but don't condemn them to a life of lesser status because they make a different choice that is both recognized and validated by Halacha."
I agree. Wow, that's like three comments in a row I'm agreeing with.
hagtbg wrote:
"Please confirm that you are saying that expressing incredulousness is disrespectful."
That's not what I'm saying, sorry.
anonymous 5:28 wrote:
"Is DovBear chopped liver? 208 comments he gets on this subject and you don't even say hello?"
Where? Send me the link, please.
I have a problem, I disagree with a real Godol, Rabbi Shimon Schwab on writing Jewish history. I do believe that his call in his article about that subject; a call not to say things as they were but rather to tell about them inspirational (but untrue) stories. This call directly lead to the culture of cover-up that allowed this aforementioned "Makri dardiki" to act for 30 years without anybody stopping him. It also directly oppose the notion that the truth is the seal of Go-d.
Now, I have a problem, I respect Rabbi Schwab TTz"L, but I respectfully disagree on this issue. Do you think that anybody in Washington Heights, Lakewood, Boro Park or the equivalents in Israel would consider this as a respectfull disagreement or would the declare me an heretic "mineih ubeih"?
A pleasure that is all mine:
http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2007/01/another-day-another-outrage.html
rabbi without a cause,
Whetheer a godol, a regular talmid chacham or most anyone of good intent, when is it best not to be able to (a) disagree with them, and (b) do so respectfully.
The matter at hand (the professional woman psak) is a means that people are using to attack an underlying issue, the strong rabbinic control in the haredi community (i.e. daat torah). The mockery that I have seen has been aimed at the later point and I agree it is a poor approach to the topic.
Finally, you note the pin test. I must ask, of what relevance is it that gadol or anyone else can do this test? What does it matter???
Pirkei Avot 1:11-12
He used to say their praise: Eliezer ben Hyrcanus is a plastered cistern which does not lose a drop;... Elazar ben Arach is an ever-flowing spring
12. He used to say: If all the sages of Israel were in one scale of the balance and Eliezer ben Hyrcanus in the other, he would outweigh them all. Abba Shaul, however, said in his name: If all the sages of Israel, together with Eliezer ben Hyrcanus were in one scale of the balance, Elazar ben Arach would outweigh them.
I submit that most MO at least support the Abba Shaul interpretation as to which is more important.
That's not what I'm saying, sorry.
Thank you. Then I don't understand why you felt Orthomom was disrespectful.
anonymous 5:37 wrote:
"I have a problem, I disagree with a real Godol, Rabbi Shimon Schwab on writing Jewish history. I do believe that his call in his article about that subject; a call not to say things as they were but rather to tell about them inspirational (but untrue) stories. This call directly lead to the culture of cover-up that allowed this aforementioned "Makri dardiki" to act for 30 years without anybody stopping him. It also directly oppose the notion that the truth is the seal of Go-d."
I'm familiar with the general hagiography debate, but not with a statement from Rav Schwab supporting telling untrue stories, so I can't comment on that issue itself.
In general, though: I have no problem with the disagreement.
anon continues:
"Now, I have a problem, I respect Rabbi Schwab TTz"L, but I respectfully disagree on this issue. Do you think that anybody in Washington Heights, Lakewood, Boro Park or the equivalents in Israel would consider this as a respectfull disagreement or would the declare me an heretic "mineih ubeih"? "
I don't know. Have you tried having the conversation?
hagtbg wrote:
"Finally, you note the pin test. I must ask, of what relevance is it that gadol or anyone else can do this test? What does it matter???"
I don't think it does matter much, beyond proving expertise; you were the one who brought it up. (You said "needle" instead of "pin" but I thought that was what you meant.)
But expertise does matter a great deal. Too many people are out there saying, "They're wrong," "The Torah says X" without having done real research.
hagtbg wrote:
"I don't understand why you felt Orthomom was disrespectful."
Because I try to imagine saying to my rebbe's face, "I absolutely cannot believe your new ruling" and it just doesn't work.
RWaC, if you are going to criticize Shmarya, please criticize him for what he actually says. Shmarya isn't mistaking makrei dardiki for gedolim. He is saying that certain makrei dardiki have been molesting their charges for decades. He is saying that those whom we know as gedolim allowed this to happen. When he shreis "this is gadlus!?" that is what he is talking about.
I was taught that what makes a gadol is that they are not just prodigies of memory, and that halacha isn't just a mechanical process that could be done by computer, but that through Torah a gadol has come to wisdom and that is why we turn to him.
We have stories from previous generation that non-Jews respected the wisdom of a gadol such as the Chafetz Chaim, ztz"l. I don't think that kind of respect from non-Jews will accrue to the actions of many important rabbis, or those who have relied on them, in the upcoming abuse legal actions.
I've been around, I'm a health professional who is a mandated reporter. I've seen and heard things. With that in mind, I have a very strong sense that at least some of the charges of molestation are, rachmana latzlan, true.
And particularly in view of what happened in the Catholic clergy abuse scandals, I see no wisdom in the apparent coverup that Shmarya is so upset about. Instead, with the object lesson of what happened to the Church staring them in the face, it looks as though the leaders thought that they could preserve the reputation of Torah institutions by a coverup that let a pervert stay in constant association with children.
If a psak says that it's OK to diddle children so long as there is no penetration, and that since the conduct wasn't an issur d'Oraisa that the diddler can be left in place to do it again and again... I think we are allowed to form some judgement about the posek, even if he is known as a gadol.
And if it begins to look like Jewish leaders are more concerned about applying standards to women's clothing than to a molester teaching in important Torah institutions... that's so horrible to contemplate -- so unthinkable for someone taught to respect a gadol -- that people wind up getting upset about White Lists.
Because I try to imagine saying to my rebbe's face, "I absolutely cannot believe your new ruling" and it just doesn't work.
Interesting. I would feel comfortable saying that to my (quite Charedi) Rav, as long as it was in a respectful tone of voice.
rabbi without a cause,
An anonymous raised the 'needle' test and it was not I.
Because I try to imagine saying to my rebbe's face, "I absolutely cannot believe your new ruling" and it just doesn't work.
I saw Orthomom answered for herself but I have my own thoughts on the matter.
I'm not sure that test is appropriate, perhaps for the same reason I think there is value to anonymity on the web. There are times when I wish I could have the nerve to say something (and think it would be appropriate to say).
Particularly to people you think are important that is sometimes hard. Harder then it should be.
If someone thinks that a judge made a really bad ruling and has some sort of relationship with him then why shouldn't he or she be forthright as to how it makes them feel?
But expertise does matter a great deal.
Yes, but is there really a halachic issue here that, to a MO person, is at issue?
Too many people are out there saying, "They're wrong," "The Torah says X" without having done real research.
People are saying they are wrong for public policy considerations (a belief that it will cause miserableness and poverty). Indeed, in that the average MO (and haredi person) works and works quite hard means that they are putting their money where there mouth is on this one, in this case quite literally. Perhaps that is why this issue is evoking a certain amount of emotion. I venture to say that the halachic issues here are a secondary concern to a MO person, but that has much, again, to do with this being fairly well settled in the MO world.
anonymous 6:07:
I am a mandated reporter as well (all clergy are), and yes, I've seen quite a bit. And I've reported it, too, where indicated. And I've been called a moser on occasion for my trouble.
I'm criticizing Shmarya because my post wasn't about anyone covering up abuse. If any "gedolim" are involved in that, I want no part of them. But I have yet to hear of any gadol going along with any cover-up. Do you have any source for such a serious allegation?
>When Abayye objects to something Rav Yosef says, he calls Rav Yosef "Mar [Master]" and says, "But what about X," he doesn't say "I think you're wrong." There's a degree of respect, because of Rav Yosef's stature.
Note that these had a relationship; they were master-student-colleague.
This is different when no relationship exists. If there is an obligation of the masses to build a relationship with the gedolim, so to is their an obligation for them to make themselves accessible and to appear accessible as well as interested in the masses; and not only the chareidi masses--all the Jewish masses. Or else they are not leaders.
Noam Chomsky is an expert in his field too. But he is aloof.
hagtbg wrote:
"An anonymous raised the 'needle' test and it was not I."
My mistake on ID, but the point is the point. You asked why I mentioned the pin test, and the answer is that I was responding to someone who mentioned it first.
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I wrote:
Because I try to imagine saying to my rebbe's face, "I absolutely cannot believe your new ruling" and it just doesn't work.
You replied:
I'm not sure that test is appropriate, perhaps for the same reason I think there is value to anonymity on the web. There are times when I wish I could have the nerve to say something (and think it would be appropriate to say).
Particularly to people you think are important that is sometimes hard. Harder then it should be.
Then allow me to clarify further: My discomfort with using that language is not because of my relationship with my rebbe. It's because I really believe it's inappropriate.
I'm not saying anyone has to agree with me, I'm just explaining my own point of view.
I wrote:
Too many people are out there saying, "They're wrong," "The Torah says X" without having done real research.
hagtbg replied:
"People are saying they are wrong for public policy considerations (a belief that it will cause miserableness and poverty)."
I was addressing the people who say that there is no basis in masorah for kollelim, or for advising women to refrain from certain educational programs.
orthomom wrote:
"Interesting. I would feel comfortable saying that to my (quite Charedi) Rav, as long as it was in a respectful tone of voice."
Im taam vareiach... I hope you are satisfied with my "update" correction.
anonymous 6:27 wrote:
"If there is an obligation of the masses to build a relationship with the gedolim, so to is their an obligation for them to make themselves accessible and to appear accessible as well as interested in the masses; and not only the chareidi masses--all the Jewish masses. Or else they are not leaders."
That's a very interesting theory, and my gut supports it although my brain wants to think it through.
It reminds me of Rav Yissachar Techtel's words in Em haBanim Semeichah, in his second foreword. He quotes R' Avahu from Midrash Tanchuma to Mishpatim. That source agrees with you 100%; I think you would enjoy it.
But are these gedolim identifying themselves as leaders, such that they shou;d have this kind of responsibility, or do they become leaders because people approach them?
>If any "gedolim" are involved in
>that, I want no part of them.
>But I have yet to hear of any
>gadol going along with any cover-
>up. Do you have any source for
>such a serious allegation?
While not Shmarya, the answer is yes. Whether they are the REAL GEDOLIM is another question.
Then allow me to clarify further: My discomfort with using that language is not because of my relationship with my rebbe. It's because I really believe it's inappropriate.
I'm not saying anyone has to agree with me, I'm just explaining my own point of view.
But that's not really what your post is about. You are posting about "ridiculing" (your word) Gedolim. Now you are parsing about whether a quite mild espression of disbelief and incredulity with a ruling passes the "face test". You are moving the goalposts here in quite an unfair manner. If you are going to cite me as an example of one who ridicules Gedolim based on as weak an argument as that you personally don't think it's exactly appropriate, then you acted unfairly here.
If you make an example of someone, it's quite disrespectful to have done so without being able to back it up as making your case.
http://www.thejewishweek.com/top/editletcontent.php3?artid=5628
...he and his colleagues have dealt with cases of abuse (kudos for this public admission) and that they do indeed sweep these matters under the rug...
...like that of the gadol who was quoted as ruling that without penetration there has been no abuse, or those who promulgate prohibitions of speaking out because of lashon hara and mesirah...
was addressing the people who say that there is no basis in masorah for kollelim, or for advising women to refrain from certain educational programs.
6:31 PM,
This is also a public policy not to be soley decided by those who are only exposed to dappim of Talmud and not real life. Funny that those with real life experience such as Centrist Rabbis will feel diffently. Unfortunately due to book bans, handling of child molestation issues, a genearal silence on Charedi violence against Gay marchers ,Shabbos violators; few from my MO comunity will take these insular Rabbis seriously on scientific and public policy issues. And to top it off they hardly ever try to defend their public policy issues but rely on their own authority. Sorry but this does not command too much respect.
But are these gedolim identifying themselves as leaders, such that they shou;d have this kind of responsibility, or do they become leaders because people approach them?
So if enough insular ignorant fools approach a person because like them they only relate to Torah and not life, knowledge of science, sensitivie to all Jews, they are gedolim by your definition.I don't buy it.
>I am a mandated reporter as well
>(all clergy are),
Actually, in NY clergy are not thanks to the lobbying efforts of Agudath Israel.
I their legal memo an other materials at: http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2006/12/agudath_israel_.html
"If you don't like where Orthodoxy is now, you have an obligation to yourself, your children, and the rest of the Jewish community to start initiatives to make it more like your ideal. Don't worry, if you're wrong, you won't succeed."
Micha,
Do you have any ideas yourself? My own is to start with communication, and small changes.
I posted this recently elsewhere:
I see the following three purposes and goals benefiting internal Orthodox concerns, in JBlogging:
(1) Bridging the RW/MO divide. Dr. David Luchins has termed the American/Israeli relationship as a sharing of “complementary” rather than “identical” interests. Similarly, both sides on the RW/MO divide, as shomrei Torah u’mitzvos, have complementary and mutual concerns which they have in common and share.
(2) Providing an intellectual home for, and a giving voice to the “moderate yeshivish”, who are either refugees from the recent shifting(sliding ?) to the Right occurring in the Charedi world, or feel that their interests are not sufficiently taken into account in the charedi press, which caters to the “multitudes” or to the “kannoim”. Obviously, the term “shifting to the Right” is a subjective one, and some would instead term the phenomenen “spiritual growth”.
(3)Relationship with the charedi Establishment. Here too, there are complementary interests, as in biological mutualism. While it might not be acknowledged publicly, I believe that many in the RW leadership will privately acknowledge that the their publications do not fully or primarily cater to those on the outer orbits of the charedi world, or those sitting on the RW/MO divide. As of yet, however, no print publication has been created for this group of people.
Officially, the internet doesn’t exist in the chardi world, but nevertheless, to ignore the blogosphere’s existence would be to hold up a white flag to those who are hostile to the yeshiva world.
The reality of blogging and various recent controversies have changed the way the Establishment needs to relate to the grass-roots.
It is in the best interests of the charedi world to have dialogue and open communication with the grass-roots, as some problems may be due to miscommunication, or may represent non-core issues where there may be able to eventually be some change on the charedi side.
As I have mentioned on other blogs, bloggers should not feel that it is a beracha levatala(futile effort) to communicate with the RW leadership. Even if there is limited change which can occur in the short-run, communication and mutual understanding is always healthy.
Whether or not the Establishment engages the blogosphere directly, or creates other forums like e-mail groups or private meetings, in my opinion, it is in everyone’s best interests that grassroots bloggers, including both idividuals on the outer orbit of the charedi world as well as people on the Right of Modern Orthodoxy(and perhaps the Left as well), maintain some type of communication with the Charedi Establishment or unofficial leaders.
orthomom wrote:
"But that's not really what your post is about. You are posting about "ridiculing" (your word) Gedolim. Now you are parsing about whether a quite mild espression of disbelief and incredulity with a ruling passes the "face test". You are moving the goalposts here in quite an unfair manner."
I haven't moved anything. Why isn't the "face test" the same as "ridiculing?"
whistleblower wrote:
"http://www.thejewishweek.com/top/editletcontent.php3?artid=5628
...he and his colleagues have dealt with cases of abuse (kudos for this public admission) and that they do indeed sweep these matters under the rug...
...like that of the gadol who was quoted as ruling that without penetration there has been no abuse, or those who promulgate prohibitions of speaking out because of lashon hara and mesirah... "
A quote from an anonymous gadol to support the idea that gedolim would ever say this?
I look to further along in the R' Dratch article, where he notes specifically that R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt"l, as well as R' Elyashiv y"l, obligated reporting. As did R' Herschel Schachter y"l recently.
I don't know whether the anonymously cited person is a gadol. I do know that the latter three are gedolim.
>My definition is as I presented it: The ones who don't go on vacation.
Several of the more famous photos of R. Moshe Feinstein show him on vacation in the Catskills. Yes, vacation for him meant a chance to sit in the breeze wearing a shirt and arba kanfot and learning, and a dip in the pool--but don't claim that he didn't take vacations! Even gedolim are entitled to some r & r.
but in your post you make it sound as if they don't need it and don't do it. Yes, some are ascetic like R AL Steinman. But these are exceptions, not the rule as you imply.
It's the proposition that our gedolim know life that I balk at. I know lots of people who are giants in their own fields and take few vacations - working a little even then. And they know their own literature backwards.
What is it about limmudei kodesh that means you will have empathy, understanding, an appreciation of human weakness and be in tune with the good things that people desire, whilst being able to dissuade them from the bad things?
Alas, what you often find is defensiveness, narrow mindedness and self-protection. What makes ME uncomfortable I will forbid to YOU.
Not all gedolim are like that. But too many are. And, of those who aren't, only a tiny category are prepared to initiate action to stop evil. Many will counsel against evil but that's not moral courage - that's reciting what you've learned. And action is what good leadership is about.
Gadol means good at Talmud and learned in Halacha. It allows a refining of an intellectual position. But the establishment of the position in the first place is not linked to the qualities that a life of constant study and prayer are likely to produce. Those gadolim who exhibit such qualities acquire them by luck. Otherwise EVERYONE who studied would demonstrate such qualities - and they patently do not.
"Actually, in NY clergy are not thanks to the lobbying efforts of Agudath Israel.
I their legal memo an other materials at: http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2006/12/agudath_israel_.html "
That is deplorable! Not only do these gedoldumb not deserve respect, many of them should be hung by the toes for the harm they've caused.
r w/o a cause–
Try reading this. Exactly how many examples of failed gedolim do you need?
In the Slifkin affair, every major gadol (and pleanty of minor ones) save one or two called the man a heretic and banned his work without speaking to him or hearing his side.
As for "results," it isn't how much gemara these rabbis know, it's how they apply that knowledge. What was done to Rabbi Slifkin or the RCA or vitims of child abuse are clear examples of these rabbis' thought process and application of halakha.
They deserve riducle, not honor.
I haven't moved anything. Why isn't the "face test" the same as "ridiculing?"
I see we are going in circles here. We will likely have to agree to disagree, but I still do not see how you can think that something that arguably may or may not pass the "face test" is the same as out-and-out "ridiculing". Sure, ridiculing someone would likely not pass the face test, but that the reverse stands true is far from a given. One is a highly debatable standard that certainly has more to do with social graces than a lack of respect - the other is designed to show disrespect.
(Please note that at this point, I am not discussing anything relating to my blog and aspersions you may or may not have cast on it - this is simply a friendly conversation about the semantics of what is considered to be in the category of "mocking" or "ridiculing" of Gedolim)
Here's a summary post replying to the last responses. I'm not trying to close discussion in any way, feel free to comment further. But I won't be able to devote much time to responding, as I elaborate in my next post on the blog.
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"anonymous 6:48 said:
Unfortunately due to book bans, handling of child molestation issues, a genearal silence on Charedi violence against Gay marchers ,Shabbos violators;"
But as has already been posted, R' SZ Auerbach, R' Elyashiv and R' Herschel Schachter have all required reporting of abuse. And there was, indeed, a proclamation against Charedi violence!
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Anonymous 6:53 wrote:
"So if enough insular ignorant fools approach a person because like them they only relate to Torah and not life, knowledge of science, sensitivie to all Jews, they are gedolim by your definition"
No; just the opposite. I'm saying that Gedolim are defined by who they are, not by people coming to them, or not coming to them.
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jewishwhistleblower wrote:
"Actually, in NY clergy are not thanks to the lobbying efforts of Agudath Israel."
That's terrible. I understand their fear, if it is as reported in the article, but I cannot agree with it.
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Anonymous 7:05 wrote:
"Even gedolim are entitled to some r & r. but in your post you make it sound as if they don't need it and don't do it. Yes, some are ascetic like R AL Steinman. But these are exceptions, not the rule as you imply."
I sit corrected; some of them will go learn in the Catskills for a few weeks instead of learning in yeshiva.
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Right to silence wrote:
"What is it about limmudei kodesh that means you will have empathy, understanding, an appreciation of human weakness and be in tune with the good things that people desire, whilst being able to dissuade them from the bad things?"
Part of it is from Torah, but part of it is from experience dealing with shailos.
I agree, not everyone can do it. But when I disagree with them, it's because of a consciousness of who they are.
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Shmarya wrote:
"r w/o a cause–"
So have I gained back my clue?
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Orthomom:
Fair enough!
rabbi without a cause -
i think anyone who is honest in terms of jewish history, theology and practice recognizes that there has always been people whom communities have referred to as their gedolim. originally in the medieval period through to the beginnings of the modern era, especially in ashkenaz (germany and france), communities were decentralized and each jewish town/village/city had their own rabbi who made communal decisions. in some exceptional circumstances they referred to another rabbi, in their ideological camp, who they considered to be superior to them in knowledge and experience (many times their own teacher).
skip to the enlightenment period and the jewish community is facing a momentum to leave that it probably had not faced for centuries. thousands of jews were streaming out of the recently torn down ghetto walls and leaving their payot and kippot behind in the shtetls of old. additionally, alternatives to traditional jewish life were popping up everywhere with attractive options like zionism, jewish socialism, hebraists and for many just plain leaving the entire jewish world behind and of course not to forget the major growth of reform.
thus erupted a rabbinic crisis that was dealt with in various ways by different communal leaders. two major examples are landserabbiner hirsch in frankfurt and the hatam sofer in the backlands of hungary. hirsch attempted a synthesis of sorts and proved wildly succesful in intellectual, burgoseise germany and parts of austria. the hatam sofer offered the traditionalist, some call it the "rejectionist" approach and was very successful in keeping back the dangers of assimilation in backlands hungary extending into eastern europe. of course there were others, some less prominent some more but those are two significant examples.
for those who have been following, this is where it gets interesting. the hatam sofer formulated an approach to judaism, in order to preserve it, that went very extra-halakhic. he reduced all differences between takanah, gezeirah, humra, d'orayta, asmachta, etc and presented them all as halacha l'moshe m'sinai and assur lishnot (in the language of the rema) for all time. he also began but it was continued by others after him, notably schlesinger, the redefinition of a gadol from one who has expertise and should be consulted in times of communal legal difficulty or troublesome halakhic problems to one of a "superhero" of sorts that learned all of shas by the time of 3 and can never err or make a mistake.
granted, the idea that hazal (remember hazal not achrei achronim in 19th century europe) never made a mistake, is a valid opinion in the mesorah, there is also an equally valid opinion amongst the rishonim that mistakes are possible and things should be investigated in light of modern understandings in science, philosophy, etc. the hatam sofer extended the opinion that hazal can make no mistake to ALL gedolim can make no mistakes. he, and his idealogues after him, created a catch 22 that a gadol must fit certain paramaters of dogma and belief so anyone who does not fit it, no matter if they meet the technical learning qualifications are not a gadol.
this i believe is the source of the ridicule being demonstrated by many not only in the blogosphere but in many sectors of the orthodox world. i agree that ad hominem attacks are NEVER justified but there is a deep sense of frustration and i argue it is due to this forced reading of our tradition created as a response to european modernity and enlightenment.
i know that was long and anyone who survived reading that, thanks and i look forward to hearing responses.
oh and one last thing - i personally heard from the shammas of rabbi chaim shmuelewitz that at a meeting of gedolei eretz yisrael he proclaimed that vacation was kadosh and necessary for true torah growth. he himself went to a beach every summer in israel and relaxed with no sefer next to him. rabbi without a cause, you stated that a gadol for you is one who does not take vacation - is reb chaim a gadol for you? also, of course, reb moshe went up to the catskills every summer, with seforim but a vacation nonetheless.
i've said this many times. the concept of gadol is an invention of the agudah in modern times.
the moetzes hagedolim was and is a political body - not a spiritual or an intellectual one.
the chaos of the torah world today is so profound that i do not see how you can valorize these rabbis.
> I just don’t think that the average Torah-observant Jew has any clue what the word “gadol” means.
I think the 'average Torah observant Jew is looking to the Gedolim for leadership and inspiration, and instead finds almost the exact opposite.
'I find it odd for anyone to offer psak on issues that they have not researched'
That is exactly the problem that many of us have when rabbis who are considered gadolim make public statements on science. I am an Orthdox Jewish scientist who works mostly with non-Orthodox Jewish scientists and non-Jewish scientists. I cringe everytime I see a well known rabbi saying something that is factually incorrect; it embarasses me personally when someone comes and inquires as to what I think about such statements.
All that said, there is no excuse for mockery or satire. Even the rabbis who make embarassing mistakes in science know more Torah than I will know in three lifetimes. And the few roshei yeshivot who have also pursued scientific careers have generaly done extremely well; Rabbi Dr. Moshe Tendler is perhaps the best example. At the Association of Orthodox Jewish Scientists convention a year and a half ago, Rabbi Dr. Tendler called for more bnei Torah who have spent years in yeshiva to pursue scientific careers and he decried the fact that the daughters and sons of frum Jews who have had successful professional careers sometimes won't marry someone who pursues secular education. And even at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University, the number of frum students pursuing PhDs probably numbers in the single digits today. This is not a problem affecting only charedi communities but the entire viability of the Orthodox world if the next generation does not have Orthodox experts on whom to rely.
RWaC post 5:50PM
"I'm familiar with the general hagiography debate, but not with a statement from Rav Schwab supporting telling untrue stories, so I can't comment on that issue itself."
The name of the article from R' Schwab ZTz"L is "Jewish History". I do not know when was it published first but you may find it in:
Selected Writings: A Collection of Addresses and Essays on Hashkafah, Jewish History and Contemporary Issues
ISBN: 0935063498
or
Selected Writings: A Collection of Addresses and Essays on Hashkafah, Jewish History and Contemporary Issues (Paperback, 1988)
ISBN: 0935063501
both published on Jan 1988 by Publisher: C.I.S. Publications
It is not a coincidence that this publisher is specializing in what you call by the euphomism "Hagiography" while I call it as it is "untrue stories". However, if you publish your email or fax number I can scan the article for you as this book is out of print
"In general, though: I have no problem with the disagreement."
There are too many stories alleging threats and phisical attacks on people who disagree. You are probably an MO like me, and we usually do not have that problem. I wish that such attitude would be the norm in all parts of the Jewish world.
rabbi ben:
Interesting thoughts. I think you place an awful lot of emphasis on the Chasam Sofer. What about the role of the Chassidim and the evolving Rebbe approach that strengthened with the Maggid of Mezrich and his next generation of talmidim?
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tzvee:
It's just not so. Even Rabbi Ben puts it at significantly before the Moetzes.
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anonymous 9:25:
That's sad. I'm glad that has not been my experience.
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Charlie Hall:
I, too, cringe. I eschew shiurim on resolving Creation and Science, for example, because the result is usually a hash on both sides.
The problem of rabbonim and science is actually much like the problem of Kosher restaurants. I find that the people who open Kosher eateries are generally people who know nothing about business, haven't succeeded in other areas of business, but like Kosher food and think that this endeavor might be for them. Hence the number of kosher restaurants that never open, or close in their first year. The same is frequently true for rabbonim and science. It is particularly so because many of the rabbonim who go into the science aren't versed enough in the Torah sources on the issues, either.
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anonymous 10:41-
You can get my email address from my profile page. I'd be most interested to see it.
Rabbi w/o a cause wrote:
I'm criticizing Shmarya because my post wasn't about anyone covering up abuse. If any "gedolim" are involved in that, I want no part of them. But I have yet to hear of any gadol going along with any cover-up. Do you have any source for such a serious allegation?
Read this:
http://www.rabbichildabuse.com/
Pretty much everything in that open letter has been confirmed by several sources in many different ways. Soon you'll see a detailed media report about it – if you don't cover your eyes and plug your ears, that is.
I admire you and your post. Why? You are anonymous, you are of a different ideology within Torah-true Yiddishkeit, yet refuse to tear down the ideology of another ideology and community.
That is true gadlus.
RWOAC,
The full article by Rabbi Schwab appeared in the first edition of his collected writings. It endorses fairy tales as that will hurt th ekids less than the truth about pre-war Europe.
I think you have some cognitive dissonance to deal with here. I grew up very yeshivishe and still have some/ a lot of that in my blood. No YU for me --- I went to college and learned mifal hashas at night. But when I read the full details of what happened in the Rabbi Slifkin affair, I could not square the actions of so many with the reverence I was according them. To keep Rabbi Slifkin's boos yet say that you have this amazing respect for those who said it was apikorsus, is incompatibel. I am not questioning your sincerity of course. The Slifkin affair forced me to change my opinions of some people ---- it was either throw the book away or lose some respect (NOT ALL RESPECT) for several people. I could not imagine that G-d truly wanted me to throw away the book. I could certainly imagine that he would not be disappointed in me if I readjusted my opinion of some people.
To clarify, I am not saying that I have no respect for the gedolim of which you speak, but there is only so much reverence you can have for someone who considers you to be an apikorus, or who considers you to admire and study works of apikorsus.
If it hasn't alread been posted, here is a link to the article on Jewish history by R. Shimon Schwab:
Jewish History
Salient quotes:
"There is a vast difference between history and storytelling. History must be truthful, otherwise it does not deserve its name. A book of history must report the bad with the good, the ugly with the beautiful, the difficulties and the victories, the guilt and the virtue. Since it is supposed to be truthful, it cannot spare the righteous if he fails, and it cannot skip the virtues of the villain. For such is truth, all is told the way it happened. Only a Navi mandated by his Divine calling has the ability to report history as it really happened, unbiased and without prejudice.
Suppose one of us today would want to write a history of Orthodox Jewish life in pre-holocaust Germany. There is much to report but not everything is complimentary. Not all of the important people were flawless as one would like to believe and not all the mores and lifestyles of this bygone generation were beyond criticism. An historian has no right to take sides. He must report the stark truth and nothing but the truth. Now, if an historian would report truthfully what he witnessed, it would make a lot of people rightfully angry. He would violate the prohibition against spreading Loshon Horah which does not only apply to the living, but also to those who sleep in the dust and cannot defend themselves any more.
What ethical purpose is served by preserving a realistic historic picture? Nothing but the satisfaction of curiosity. We should tell ourselves and our children the good memories of the good people, their unshakeable faith, their staunch defense of tradition, their life of truth, their impeccable honesty, their boundless charity and their great reverence for Torah and Torah sages. What is gained by pointing out their inadequacies and their contradictions? We want to be inspired by their example and learn from their experience."
To anonymous 5:37 and 10:41-
I have now seen the essay, courtesy of the website provided by anonymous 10:02 this morning.
Frankly, R' Schwab didn't advise anyone to speak untruths. He was pretty clear: Tell the true good stories, and don't tell the bad ones at all.
Now, all of us could argue that this whitewash presents a false overall picture of the person. But looking at your approach, what do you do with hilchos lashon hara?
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Shmarya said...
Rabbi w/o a cause wrote: "Do you have any source for such a serious allegation?"
"Read this:
http://www.rabbichildabuse.com/"
That's incredible stuff. I have to admit I'm horrified.
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hmmm said...
"I admire you and your post. Why? You are anonymous, you are of a different ideology within Torah-true Yiddishkeit, yet refuse to tear down the ideology of another ideology and community.
That is true gadlus. "
Thanks; gadlus or not, I appreciate it.
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frummeyid said...
"The full article by Rabbi Schwab appeared in the first edition of his collected writings. It endorses fairy tales as that will hurt th ekids less than the truth about pre-war Europe."
Having read the article, I don't agree. He never advises telling fairy tales. See the article at the link above.
"I think you have some cognitive dissonance to deal with here."
Agreed; I expect to post about that soon.
The trend we are currently witnessing in the charedi world is not gadlus- it is fear mongering and mafia style bullying in order to get their way and all is being hidden the great veil of "daas torah". The entire torah community is being brought to its knees and forced to submitt to the will of a single gadol- Rav Elyashiv. I will ask the question here and hope it gets posted (YeshivaWorld told me that it belongs in the trash) Who appointed Rav Elyashiv as the supreme leader of Judaism and gave him Daas Yachid to paskin for every frum Jew? Aren't we permitted to go to a YU rav to ask our questions? By their own admission the El Al fiasco had nothing to do with Halacha but rather Hashkafa- that being the case, when it comes to hashkafa the argument should be even stronger that we are allowed to decide for our selves and each community is entitled to make its own decision. The religion is being high jacked by the right wing charedi community and they have declared that its my way or the highway- this is not Torah Judaism. .
Honestly frum:
I hear what you are saying, but I'm not sure I agree with your premise. Is Rav Elyashiv going out there and demanding that people listen to him, or are people coming to him with their questions, to which he is responding?
I say this because I recall "charedi" piskei halachah going back decades prohibiting smoking, and yet bnei yeshiva in these communities continue to smoke.
I don't see Rav Elyashiv calling press conferences. I think it's more a function of people asking, and then spreading the responses they receive, than anything else.
What is a Gadol?
I see my comment flew right over (or below) your head.
You give me quote from a Gemara that uses the word Gedolim to explain the modern-day Gadol phenomena??
You also missed the word "frum" from my post.
I also read you write that people who don't take vacations are gedolim. That is just laughable no matter what your definition of Gadol is.
Perhaps one of your readers can come up with an answer to my gedolim question. Please turn it into a port if you get a response.
Shabbat Shalom.
(edited)
What is a Gadol?
I see my comment flew right over (or below) your head.
You give me quote from a Gemara that uses the word Gedolim to explain the modern-day Gadol phenomenon?
You also missed the word "frum" from my post.
I also read you write that people who don't take vacations are gedolim. That is just laughable no matter what your definition of Gadol is.
Perhaps one of your readers can come up with an answer to my gedolim question. Please turn it into a post if you get a response.
Shabbat Shalom.
Jew:
I'm not sure what you are looking for, when you talk about the origin of the Gadol concept. Do you mean the idea that there are people who, because of their religious achievement, deserve great respect?
If so, then:
The Gemara talks about the awe of your rebbe being like that of Heaven (Pesachim 108).
The Gemara (Berachot 19) mentions ex-communication and Divine punishment as appropriate punishment for saying that you don't like such-and-such a lesson from your rebbe or mock a Torah scholar.
One who is lazy in eulogizing a Torah scholar gets an early death (Shabbat 105).
One should be in awe when dealing with a Torah scholar (Nedarim 22).
When Torah Scholars look at someone in anger, the person dies or becomes impoverished (Chagigah 5b).
You can find more on this at the website of a friend of mine, at www.webshas.org/torah/chacham.htm.
As far as vacations, note that I actually wrote "luxurious vacations."
I have been trying to understand why there is so much talking past one another on the Slifkin issue. At this age of instant communication, it should be possible to resolve most issues or at least gain some clarity. For an analysis, see a series of posts on avakesh.com
avakesh:
The problem is that communication, instant or otherwise, only works if one party is talking and the other is listening. If both are listening then the instantaneousness only means they can talk past each other faster than before...
The Gemara talks about the awe of your rebbe being like that of Heaven (Pesachim 108).
The Gemara (Berachot 19) mentions ex-communication and Divine punishment as appropriate punishment for saying that you don't like such-and-such a lesson from your rebbe or mock a Torah scholar.
LOL - of course it does, it was WRITTEN by the rebbes!
Tzipporah:
And therein lies much of the problem - if you don't respect the Gemara and its rabbis, there is no way you'll respect the rabbis of today. You're problem isn't with Bnei Brak 5767, it's with Bnei Brak 3767.
"There are some 2700 daf in shas, and the Gedolim can tell you what's on each page. They can quote Rishonim and Acharonim and debate and discuss the different sides of each argument. They know Shulchan Aruch, they know poskim and teshuvos."
Actually that is not neccesarily true.
Rav Shach said that he only knows the Mesechtot learned by Yeshivot ie Kiddushin, Gitin, the Three Bavas,Sanhedrin etc.
Anonymous 6:48 PM-
1. See Bava Metzia 23b, at the bottom of the page.
2. See also Taanis 10b on the definition of a Talmid Chacham.
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