My problem with Platonics
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[UPDATE: In the 21st comment on this post, an anonymous commenter points to a very interesting site. Very worth seeing, whether you agree or disagree.]
In high school the question was whether you were shomer negiah (avoiding contact with the opposite gender) or not.
In college the question was whether you would date for fun, or only for marriage purposes.
Out and about in the married world, the question of relationships with people of the opposite gender, other than your spouse, persists.
I remember vividly the several conversations I have had with my valued rebbeim regarding the Shulchan Aruch’s unyielding laws (Even haEzer 21) against socializing with others’ spouses, to the point where it is unclear why I can even say to a man, “Tell your wife I say hello.”
Why are platonic extra-marital relationships such an issue in Judaism?
My answer is not really religious; rather, it’s psychosocial, based on my own observations regarding myself and regarding the people around me. No big insights, just my thoughts:
(Note: I discuss heterosexual relationships below because those are most familiar to me, but the same could be argued regarding same-sex extramarital relationships.)
1. The seven times per minute myth.
You know what I’m talking about – the idea that men think about sex X number of times per minute. The numbers people quote are myths – you can find a good article on this at snopes.com – but the concept is valid. Men, in most contexts, think about it a lot, and it colors their relationships.
I can’t speak for women, but this appears to be biological fact regarding the male mind in general if not for every specific case. Call it evolution, call it yetzer hara, I’m not particularly interested what label you use – but it’s there. (Boy, wouldn’t my congregants like to hear me say that! Anonymity, I love you.)
2. Static relationships stagnate, so that the extra-marital relationship must grow.
Whether through sharing activities, surviving crises or otherwise living life together, couples grow together. If they don’t share these things, they tend to become bored with each other. I see it all the time in marriages.
The same is true in extra-marital relationships – in order for relationships to stay strong, people need to grow closer together. If they don’t, the relationship stagnates. And so what was satisfying yesterday isn’t satisfying today, and certainly won’t satisfy tomorrow.
3. Extra-marital relationships distract energy from the marriage relationship, or from seeking a marriage relationship
Marriages face crises on a weekly and even daily basis. Family stress, outside events, whatever… they create tensions that demand resolution.
Extra-marital friendships, though, have little of that stress. The investment isn’t the same, the dull day-to-day interaction isn’t the same, the pressure of being in a marriage, and perhaps raising kids, isn’t the same. That’s why office fantasies do so well – because they come with none of the baggage. This creates the temptation for an dangerous outlet.
Further, even if the extra-marital relationship never leaves the platonic level, it still drains energy and focus from the marriage relationship. Why should I spend time and energy and emotional pain working out our problems, when I can go have a fun chat with my friend?
Of course, this last concern applies to all extra-marital activities, not just friendships – but those friendships offer a tempting pseudo-relationship in place of the marriage.
I’m not saying it’s impossible to have a platonic extra-marital friendship without it evolving into something more dangerous. I’m only saying that:
1. The temptation for it to become sexual is very strong;
2. The relationship will evolve, in the normal course of things, and that which is not dangerous today could become dangerously sexual tomorrow; and
3. Even if it never becomes dangerously sexual, that extra-marital friendship will sap focus and energy from the marriage relationship.
Those are my two cents; wait for me to duck behind the podium before you start throwing things, please.
39 comments:
3. Even if it never becomes dangerously sexual, that extra-marital friendship will sap focus and energy from the marriage relationship.
That is speculation. It doesn't have to be nor is it always this way.
but doesn't judaism also provide space for different types of friendships? (and didnt you write a post on that?)
so if that is the case, then isn't it obvious that no one relationship should or could be expected to fulfill all a person's needs, hence the need for more than just one's spouse.
and finally, when one member of a marriage is in a difficult profession (clergy, medicine, soldier, etc.) isn't possible that there is real benefit to the partner if that person vents about work and work related stress outside of the marriage?
Jack:
It's based on the idea that there is a finite degree of focus and energy available, such that anything channeled toward X is not available for the marriage.
One argument against my view might be that having another relationship might actually help strengthen the marriage one - which is the point anonymous 9:53 seems to be trying to make - but I'm not sure how that works.
anonymous 9:53-
Judaism does provide for those relationships, and I did write that post. But I think those are quite likely intended to be same-gender relationships, which are less sex-based (in a heterosexual situation), less fraught with male hormonal issues, and less attractive for their fantasy component.
As to the venting - 100% agreed. But at what price?
i was silently waiting for this post and i enjoyed it very much :-).
that said... well, our relationships shape us in many ways, and an enriching, intense, profound relationship with another human being can be quite life altering and can also transmit its energy and intensity into other areas of our life...there are people that bring out the best in us, people that influence us to be better... i'd hope that, as long as one keeps their priorities clear, these platonic relationships shouldn't be a problem.
Does subtle online flirting between two bloggers of opposite genders constitute an extra-marital friendship? (And now I'm going to duck behind the podium.)
monica
sadly too many people forget that or get caught up in their emotions and much damage is done
chazzal understood all this and saw the risks involved and therefore told us too avoid these kinds of relationships as much as possible
chazzal understood all this and saw the risks involved and therefore told us too avoid these kinds of relationships as much as possible
These answers irritate the heck out of me and here is why. It doesn't give enough credit to people and our ability to do the right thing.
I can find a woman attractive and not respond to that attraction.
Further, even if the extra-marital relationship never leaves the platonic level, it still drains energy and focus from the marriage relationship. Why should I spend time and energy and emotional pain working out our problems, when I can go have a fun chat with my friend?
It doesn't have to be an either/or situation.
You can have good friends and not have that relationship detract from your marriage.
But the thing about your example here that really grabs me is that you seem to have focused this on relationships between men and women.
Based upon your example we could argue that we shouldn't have any friends because any relationship would take away from our marriage.
i am sorry if it upsets you that chazzal dont trust us but as they said ain apitrupis liarayos.
there are too many stories and situations where it started out as a friend and ended up much more.
as for trusting us come on we can hardly trust ourselves we may start off with the right intentions but once you mix in hormones and emotions many times situations that we thought were controllable quickly spiral out of control.
also let me ask you do u get as upset that chazzal didnt trust us (or themselves) and made many things muktzah on shabbas as a geder. does it upset you that they didnt trust you to touch a pen and not end up writing on shabbas.
also like RWAC said earlier chazzal had to look out for the whole of israel not just special individuals who have amazing self control
How should a rabbi deal with a woman congregant who needs counselling? Isn't this also a situation that is fraught with temptation (especially as she may be vulnerable and/or likely to view the rabbi as a compassionate, attractive guy)? How should rabbis' wives feel about the time her husband devotes to his female congregants?
i am sorry if it upsets you that chazzal dont trust us but as they said ain apitrupis liarayos.
there are too many stories and situations where it started out as a friend and ended up much more.
You don't have to apologize for that. It is part of why I can't buy in nor practice certain things.
I am not a fan of practices that infantilize people. I am not a fan of doing things just because they are minhag. I like to spend some time considering why we do what we do so that I can make an educated decision.
To be clear, I am not saying that you have not done so, just speaking in a general sense.
Monica-
I'd agree; the big question is the clarity of priorities, as well as the application of those priorities.
anonymous 11:10-
I suppose it would, if I had an on-line photo attractive enough to draw that kind of attention...
tf-
You make good points, but I deliberately kept the halachic imperative separate in this because of the point that Jack makes. See my response to him next.
jack-
You can have good friends and not have that relationship detract from your marriage.
True - but to keep a really strong friendship often takes time and energy away from the marriage.
Example: Your friend's birthday is coming up. You want to do something special for her. But doing that special thing will take time away from your focus on your wife, perhaps time away from helping with the kids. Then what?
But the thing about your example here that really grabs me is that you seem to have focused this on relationships between men and women.
Did not - look back at the post, where I noted it applies to all friendships. As I wrote, "Of course, this last concern applies to all extra-marital activities, not just friendships – but those friendships offer a tempting pseudo-relationship in place of the marriage."
anonymous 9:25 am-
You ask very good - and, frankly, unanswerable - questions.
How should a rabbi deal with a woman congregant who needs counselling? Isn't this also a situation that is fraught with temptation (especially as she may be vulnerable and/or likely to view the rabbi as a compassionate, attractive guy)?
This is a huge problem for me. Since I am widely recognized as both compassionate and wildly attractive (the word they use is hot), I have to fend off women with both arms, and sometimes my arms get tired.
No, more seriously: This is why rabbis have to be very careful and extra-strict regarding laws of yichud, that they shouldn't be alone with women. Speaking solely from my own experience, the temptation is there and must be dealt with.
How should rabbis' wives feel about the time her husband devotes to his female congregants?
Another tough one. You might ask RenReb?
well... i grew up secular so, for me, being randomly alone with an (even attractive) member of the opposite sex means next to nothing... so i guess it means more to you, growing up religious, because you´re used to restricting your contact with the opposite sex and are probably more aware of its implications than i am.
i think it is beautiful, (regardless of how "inconvenient") that you can still attach so much meaning to mere presence, where it has, for a lot of us, very little meaning if any at all.
sorry for bringing halacha into this discussion
maybe the solution to at least some of your problems is to make sure that married couples, as much as possible, merge their pools of friends. that way, it's not that one spouse is taking time away from the other in order to do something with their friend — instead, you have the couple as a whole investing time together (i.e. with each other) in spending time with their mutual friend
RWAC:
Don't you think mutual emotional dependency is the key to a successful marriage. This, I assume, is what makes a marriage unique among interpersonal relationships - it's a voluntary dependency, unlike that between a child and his/her parent.
I assume the other relationships merely attempt to fill in some missing detail. Sorry, I don't have ant Torah to offer.
as for number 3, I think in modern society its pretty accepted fact. The term used is "emotional infidelity" - here is a pop culture article about it on ivillage - not the most religious of all sites
http://love.ivillage.com/lnsproblems/lnscheating/0,,fmf6,00.html
tf-
no apology necessary.
steg-
Yes, that can work - although the added closeness can also be a challenge. I speak from experience; I had a case of adultery in one of my communities, and it developed in part because the couples had been close. [To tell you it was an unearthly disaster for the couples, for their kids, for all of their friends and for the shul as a whole would be a gross, gross understatement.]
shvach-
Aren't friendships also a voluntary mutual dependency?
anonymous 7:06 pm-
Thanks for adding that.
RWAC and readers:
Long time reader, first time commenter. I want to tell you from my own experience that extreme caution must be exersized when developing friendships with the opposite sex. I am married and have several children and right now I am deeply in love with someone who is not my husband. He is also married and has a child. We were just platonic friends and neither of us saw it coming. I can't begin to describe the pain and the toll, which are just beginning. My advice is stay totally focused on your spouse and work hard at it every hour of every day. Trust me you don't want to end up where I am.
Example: Your friend's birthday is coming up. You want to do something special for her. But doing that special thing will take time away from your focus on your wife, perhaps time away from helping with the kids. Then what?
That is a little too broad. Let's narrow the focus. I'll use myself as an example. I could find an appropriate birthday card that says I appreciate your friendship, happy birthday etc. It takes but a moment of my time and is not suggestive of anything other than friendship.
Within the space of just minutes I have provided my friend with an expression of my appreciation.
The real question to me is whether a person feels the need to hide their friendship from their spouse.
That raises a whole different ball of wax. It also leads me to a different discussion about why I think that BTs do better with this than FFBs, but we'll save that for later.
Hmm. Well, I'm mostly of the opinion that we need our friends (ALL our friends) to be fully ourselves, and to bring as much of ourselves to our marriage as possible.
Bad Cohen (my husband) is a composer - I'm not. I don't always "get" the music stuff he geeks about. I'd much rather he have female colleagues and friends to share that with than nobody at all, making him come home resenting my lack of interest in something that's very important to him. Do I get jealous? Sometimes. But not because I worry about him straying - more because I wish I could share that part of his life better. But that's my limitation, not his fault. And he'd be having those experiences without me whether it was with male OR female friends - what takes his time away from us is his work, and his passion for it. I'm grateful that he has friends who can feed that part of his soul.
In general, we tend to be friends with other couples (esp. couples with children). And we all grow together, which is nice. I do think we've avoided, or maybe not been interested in, pursuing one-on-one activities with the opposite gender member of the couple, so that hasn't been an issue.
The other side of this (speaking only as a woman, here) is to simply never imagine a physical relationship with another person as possible. It's as inconceivable to me as riding a Tyrannasaurus Rex to work, or serving shrimp to the rabbi - just doesn't compute. That's possible because of the conscious committment I've made to my marriage and my husband. There have been some situations where it was CLEAR a man was flirting with me, one I might have been interested in *if I weren't married.* But it was as tempting as herring-flavored ice cream, because to me, it just wasn't possible. I don't know if the same mental trick could work for men, but it's worked for 10 years for me.
anonymous 12:09 am-
Thanks for posting, but OUCH! I hope you, as well as the man involved, are in touch with good counseling.
Jack-
Re: birthday cards - I think we're talking about different kinds of friendship. I'd agree that the nodding acquaintance or occasional-hello-friend doesn't pose a threat to #3.
Re: hiding the relationship - 100% agreed that this is a problem, although not sure why there would be a distinction between people of different religious backgrounds.
tzipporah-
I'm glad your method works for you, but I'd be skeptical of how it would work for men. I'd be curious how men respond... but that would make this a different sort of blog altogether...
although I haven't read through all the comments just yet.. I've skimmed through some and particularly noted Jack's disagreement with the fact that a relationship with a man other than one's husband does not sap energy from the marital relationship.
I think this is untrue.. and I don't see that it is possible to look at it in any other way, once you've experienced it.
Even if the percentage that it saps is only 1% - The Energy Decrease... IS THERE.
Jack also argued
'Based upon your example we could argue that we shouldn't have any friends because any relationship would take away from our marriage.
I would say it is true that one can turn to a same-sex friend and take away from investing energy into one's marriage,(a form of distraction or release)
but when that friend is one of the same gender, it doesn't detract from the energy that is specifically created for THE MARRIAGE UNION -
whereas a bond with a person of the opposite gender.. even on a minute level.. DOES.
And being, that a close marriage is a holy union that is intended to bring us closer to G-d - .. then - ideally - we should not detract from this energy even minimally.
Still... it is a lengthy subject with many pros and cons and different views.
But I think that what I've described above is the essence of it.
the only way I know-
That's certainly the way that I see it... but then, I've been justly accused of appreciating only black and white, and not the grays in between.
you can argue the other way that the other side is making up gray where none exists.
there are some things in this world that are black and white not everything is grey
rabbi -
yes, I thought you do..
and tf -
I too think that in some matters (maybe in more matters than we care to admit) there is no gray area, and it is only black and white.
However, it is not always easy to live life that way - black and white - (although who said life has to be easy, and one should most certainly try to live in ways that are true)
and so - yes - you have quite a point.
I agree with the Rabbi. Feelings aren't logical and develop whether you like it or not.
Does that mean bisexual people shouldn't have friends at all?
anonymous 11:37 am-
Just like for heterosexual people, I'd say that if they have found a spouse then they should be careful not to divert energy to other relationships, regardless of gender.
Honored Rebbi:
I am certain that You wrote that with "tongue-in-cheek" and were not intending to "endorse" homosexual relationships.
(Since that's the case,
I Did Laugh.)
(Post-Script from previous anony:)
Although I have repeatedly addressed You as "Honored Rabbi" (etc.)
I am not the writer who threatened to "Out" You.
(And I ceratainly wouldn't,
even if I knew. . .)
Seems so sad to view love and friendship as something finite. TIME is finite, and I think that time is the trouble, not the friendship per se. If you spend time out of proportion with one of your friends, of course your marriage and your other friends will suffer.
But I sure agree with the notion that you should beware - what seems platonic today might feel all different tomorrow. Feelings (and gds way of giving them to us) work in a mysterious way that is very hard for human beings to anticipate.
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